In times like this, when something horrendous happens, people tend to hypothesize as to the reasons why. As most everyone knows by now, the "nice Christian boy," James Holmes massacred 12 innocent people and wounded many more in his rampage in a Colorado movie theatre. One hypothesis was put forth by the Christian apologist, Rick Warren, in one of his latest tweets, when he said, "When students are taught they are no different from animals, they act like it." The implied hypothesis being, that it's the result of teaching science, and in particular, Darwinianism and materialism. I propose that there is a better explanation. My hypothesis, which is not new by the way, as I have pointed out numerous times, the great Christian philosopher Pelagius pointed out long ago, that if you promulgate the notion that people are born bad, and cannot help but to sin, but will still gain entrance into paradise as long as they "repent"-- they are more likely to sin, repent, sin, repent--and repeat when necessary. Pelagius was wise, and realized that this belief would lead to "moral laxity"--which is quite evident in our predominantly Christian society, and amongst Christians in particular. My hypothesis is that when Christians are taught they are "born sinners" and cannot help but to sin, as they are taught it is not possible for them to be perfect, and that they are nevertheless given the "free gift" of salvation, they will have more of a tendency to act immorally, or, when Christians are taught they live in a world that is dominated by Satan, that it leads to immorality. Either way, it leads to immorality and chaos, and Christianity provides believers with a basis for the belief that they are absolved from taking responsibility for their own bad behavior. Jesus does that for them.
As Benge Nsenduluka pointed out in the article he wrote for the Christian Post, James Holmes was a "normal Christian boy" heavily involved in his local Presbyterian church. As Rev. G. Aiken Taylor pointe out in his article, What Presbyterians Believe:
Everything is Determined by God
Presbyterians believe that everything which happens takes place according to the will of God and can be fully understood only in the will of God. Nothing can come to any man that He does not allow for his own purposes and glory. He overrules the actions of evil men and brings their evil to naught. He works all things after the counsel of His own will and turns all things--even apparent evil--to ultimate good in the lives of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.
Original Sin
Human nature is rather sinful and "inclined to evil as the sparks fly upward." We see undesirable behavior and sinful tendencies in the smallest infant, and we observe that without discipline and restraint human beings inevitably live selfishly. This view of human nature Presbyterians describe by the term "Original Sin" because human imperfection seems to be both innate and instinctive. This imperfection (sin) taints every facet of our personalities. Consequently the description of Original Sin to which Presbyterians subscribe is summarized in the doctrine of Total Depravity. Mankind, we say, is inevitably (originally) and altogether (totally) marked by sin on account of the Fall.
Total Depravity
The doctrine of Total Depravity also suggests man's helplessness. Human beings are not only sinful, they are also helplessly sinful. We are spiritually dead in our sins, bound under the guilt and penalty of sin and unable to do anything to please God. None of our works are pure and therefore pleasing to God. All our righteousness is as filthy rags. We do not even have it in us to turn to Him that we may be cleansed and healed.
Jesus Takes Responsibility for Their Sins, and Absolves Them from Having to do so Themselves
He, the Eternal Son, took upon Himself our nature, lived a sinless life as a man and died on the Cross in a sacrifice which somehow paid the price of our redemption from sin-we know not how but we believe it. In a victory over death and the grave our Lord rose from the dead and returned to the Father from Whom He sent the Holy Spirit to apply to those who would believe the effects of His work. In the gift of the Holy Spirit-by grace through faith-the originally sinful nature of man is transfigured to become Godly and possessed of the capacity to be God-like. This "new life" begins now in the hearts of those who believe in and receive Jesus Christ.
Everything, Including Faith and Salvation is Determined by God
In keeping with the doctrine of Sovereignty, under which God is seen to determine all things, Presbyterians believe that the knowledge of Christ and the acceptance of Christ which leads to Salvation also come from God. We are saved by faith alone and this faith itself is a gift of God. Our personal redemption is not due to any goodness of our own for we have none; neither is it earned by our good works for sinners cannot accumulate "credit" leading to redemption.
Now we can see that while they say it is possible to become "Godly" they counter that with Original Sin, which would indicate that no matter what, humans have a tendency to be immoral. Now follow the logic. If one like James Holmes, performs an act such as murdering innocent people, then that act could not have occurred unless God willed it to be. Recall, as stated above, that Presbyterians believe nothing can come to any man that He does not allow for his own purposes and glory. He overrules the actions of evil men and brings their evil to naught. Now we see the double bind message that is propagated by the Christian Presbyterian belief system.
As to not having to "reinvent the wheel," and to save time, I will quote at length as the meaning of "double bind":
Gregory Bateson and his colleagues defined the double bind as follows (paraphrased):The situation involves two or more people, one of whom (for the purpose of the definition), is designated as the "victim". The others are people who are considered the victim's superiors: figures of authority (such as parents), whom the victim respects.Repeated experience: the double bind is a recurrent theme in the experience of the victim, and as such, cannot be resolved as a single traumatic experience.A "primary injunction" is imposed on the victim by the others in one of two forms:(a) "Do X, or I will punish you";(b) "Do not do X, or I will punish you".(or both a and b)The punishment may include the withdrawing of love, the expression of hate and anger, or abandonment resulting from the authority figure's expression of helplessness.A "secondary injunction" is imposed on the victim, conflicting with the first at a higher and more abstract level. For example: "You must do X, but only do it because you want to". It is unnecessary for this injunction to be expressed verbally.If necessary, a "tertiary injunction" is imposed on the victim to prevent them from escaping the dilemma. See phrase examples below for clarification.Finally, Bateson states that the complete list of the previous requirements may be unnecessary, in the event that the victim is already viewing their world in double bind patterns. Bateson goes on to give the general characteristics of such a relationship:When the victim is involved in an intense relationship; that is, a relationship in which he feels it is vitally important that he discriminate accurately what sort of message is being communicated so that he may respond appropriately;And, the victim is caught in a situation in which the other person in the relationship is expressing two orders of message and one of these denies the other;And, the victim is unable to comment on the messages being expressed to correct his discrimination of what order of message to respond to: i.e., he cannot make a metacommunicative statement.Thus, the essence of a double bind is two conflicting demands, each on a different logical level, neither of which can be ignored or escaped. This leaves the victim torn both ways, so that whichever demand they try to meet, the other demand cannot be met. "I must do it, but I can't do it" is a typical description of the double bind experience.For a double bind to be effective, the victim must be unable to confront or resolve the conflict between the demand placed by the primary injunction and that of the secondary injunction. In this sense, the double bind differentiates itself from a simple contradiction to a more inexpressible internal conflict, where the victim really wants to meet the demands of the primary injunction, but fails each time through an inability to address the situation's incompatibility with the demands of the secondary injunction. Thus, victims may express feelings of extreme anxiety in such a situation, as they attempt to fulfil the demands of the primary injunction albeit with obvious contradictions in their actions."
The Christian belief system has many "double binds" as illustrated above, such as the free will/determinist double bind, and the godly/born sinner double bind, and so forth. Now, these double binds lead to mental illness, such as schizophrenia, as indicated below:
The Double Bind Theory was first articulated in relationship to schizophrenia, but Bateson and his colleagues hypothesized that schizophrenic thinking was not necessarily an inborn mental disorder but a learned confusion in thinking. Many people have forgotten that Bateson and his colleagues were working in the Veteran's Administration Hospital (1949–1962) with World War II veterans. As soldiers they'd been able to function well in combat, but the effects of life-threatening stress had affected them. At that time, 18 years before Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder was officially recognized, the veterans had been saddled with the catch-all diagnosis of schizophrenia. Bateson didn't challenge the diagnosis but he did maintain that the seeming nonsense the patients said at times did make sense within context—and he gives numerous examples in section III--Pathology in Relationship (in Steps to an Ecology of Mind). For example, a patient misses an appointment, and when Bateson finds him later the patient says 'the judge disapproves'; Bateson responds, "You need a defense lawyer" see following (pp. 195–6) Bateson also surmised that people habitually caught in double binds in childhood would have greater problems—that in the case of the schizophrenic, the double bind is presented continually and habitually within the family context from infancy on. By the time the child is old enough to have identified the double bind situation, it has already been internalized, and the child is unable to confront it. The solution then is to create an escape from the conflicting logical demands of the double bind, in the world of the delusional system. (see in Towards a Theory of Schizophrenia-Illustrations from Clinical Data.One solution to a double bind is to place the problem in a larger context, a state Bateson identified as Learning III, a step up from Learning II (which requires only learned responses to reward/consequence situations). In Learning III, the double bind is contextualized and understood as an impossible no-win scenario so that ways around it can be found.Bateson's double bind theory was never followed up by research into whether family systems imposing systematic double binds might be a cause of schizophrenia. This complex theory has been only partly tested, and there are gaps in the current psychological and experimental evidence required to establish causation The current understanding of schizophrenia takes into account a complex interaction of genetic, neurological as well as emotional stressors, including family interaction and it has been argued that if the double bind theory overturns findings suggesting a genetic basis for schizophrenia then more comprehensive psychological and experimental studies are needed, with different family types and across various family contexts.*
We have already heard of some of the emotional stressors that triggered James Holmes' rampage, such as dropping out of the PhD neuroscience program at Colorado University. I hypothesize that this combination of factors, that the double bind message of Christianity that he was taught and believed and the stressors of his life led him to his rampage. The other horn of my disjunction goes without saying. I merely note that we are all aware of the cases of the immoral actions and chaos committed by those who, whether they are Christian or non-Christian, are the result of their belief that they are controlled by Satan or possessed by demons or Satan and so on, and is the result of the teachings of Christianity. So either way, whether it be cases such as James Holmes or the other cases just mentioned, they are the result of the teachings of Christianity. Yes, James Holmes was a "normal Christian boy"--what a scary thought.
Addendum 1:
I merely mentioned the other disjunct because I was waiting for an example, and I knew it was forthcoming. Christians are so predictable. Here it is: http://christiandiarist.com/tag/james-holmes/
The Christian Diarist says it all in his title, "Satan Rears Himself in Colorado Shootings."
According to the Christian Diarist:
The suspected triggerman, 24-year-old James Holmes, will be described variously as “troubled” or “unstable” or “detached from reality.” But I am convinced that the young killer was operating under satanic influence.
Of course, to attribute today’s murder spree in the Rock Mountain State to the supernatural machinations of the evil one is to invite ridicule from those who refuse believe there are demonic forces at work in this fallen world of ours.
But the Scripture warns us that “we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”Now, we have both disjuncts. In this case, James Holmes is absolved of his responsibility by the Christian Diarist as his actions are "due to Satan." Whether the person claims they are guided or controlled by Satan or whether others make the claim, either way, we can see the negative consequences of the Christian belief system on this subject.
Note, that the Christian doctrine expressed by the Christian Diarist is also a Christian double bind, as it teaches that everything is determined by God, and then turns around and blames Satan when something bad happens, as they claim he is responsible for the evils in the world, when they just said that God determines everything!! Again, this lead to mental illness such as schizophrenia.
I hypothesize that this combination of factors including the double bind message of Christianity that he was taught and believed, combined with the stressors of his life, led him to his rampage, or it's the result of people believing the Christian teachings and doctrines that we live in a world that is dominated by Satan, which leads to immorality. Either way, it leads to immorality, and chaos, and Christianity provides believers with a basis for the belief that they are absolved from taking responsibility for their own bad behavior. Jesus does that for them.
It makes no difference whether James Holmes is/was practicing or to which "sect" of Presbyterianism he belonged to. The fact of the matter is, in our society Christians and non-Christians alike (even some atheists) are subject to the influences of Christianity as described above.
In this post, I am focussing on Christianity. There are also many atrocities that are committed as a result of some of the other religions. Mary Daly in Gyn/Ecology points this out with Chinese foot binding and the African circumcision of women, and Hindu "sati"--the burning of widows alive, and so forth. The focus of this post was to provide an explanation for the horrendous actions of James Holmes, and the moral laxity that is prominent in our society as a result of the Christian doctrines stated above, which is the best explanation for how these events came about.
Of course, I am open to the possibility that it was a natural cause, such as a physical condition. In other words, his mental state could be the result of a physical imbalance. But if this is the case, then the role of the Christian god is compromised, and we have come full circle on Rick Warren because he claims that James Holmes' actions are due to teaching students biology/evolution, when as he said:
"When students are taught they are no different from animals, they act like it."
And now, giving a naturalistic explanation for the horrendous actions of James Holmes, thereby undermining Christianity at its foundation, as they claim EVERYTHING is controlled by God. This would support the H-D method and the scientific explanation of the world, which is the best explanation.
Addendum 2:
Just to let everyone know, one of the main goals of writing this post is to argue for a naturalistic explanation for EVERYTHING--the good, the bad, and the ugly--including the best explanation for the existence of the universe. This, in conjunction with what I have already argued above, will result in the tendency to have less moral laxity, and the likelihood of less tragedies such as the one committed by James Holmes. I will write a second post now that I have received enough responses from Christians, atheists or otherwise to illustrate that Christians want to credit God for ALL the good things in the world, and blame Satan/naturalism/humans for ALL the bad things in the world--while at the same time believing God determines EVERYTHING. I will argue that theistic determinism and theistic free will is inconsistent, but that a certain sense of determinism and free will are compatible, and that everything in our world is better explained via natural explanations, as opposed to supernatural explanations. Part of a naturalistic explanation I will argue for, involves the notion that the self is in part explainable by every experience that a person has, and that involves any organization, school, relationships, etc., and if we knew all of these, and all their interrelatedness, we could just about predict a persons' behavior.
Please see the following comments on this post from Debunking Christianity, where it was also posted. These comments are a lead in to my next post on the subject.
Addendum 1:
I merely mentioned the other disjunct because I was waiting for an example, and I knew it was forthcoming. Christians are so predictable. Here it is: http://christiandiarist.com/tag/james-holmes/
The Christian Diarist says it all in his title, "Satan Rears Himself in Colorado Shootings."
According to the Christian Diarist:
The suspected triggerman, 24-year-old James Holmes, will be described variously as “troubled” or “unstable” or “detached from reality.” But I am convinced that the young killer was operating under satanic influence.
Of course, to attribute today’s murder spree in the Rock Mountain State to the supernatural machinations of the evil one is to invite ridicule from those who refuse believe there are demonic forces at work in this fallen world of ours.
But the Scripture warns us that “we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”Now, we have both disjuncts. In this case, James Holmes is absolved of his responsibility by the Christian Diarist as his actions are "due to Satan." Whether the person claims they are guided or controlled by Satan or whether others make the claim, either way, we can see the negative consequences of the Christian belief system on this subject.
Note, that the Christian doctrine expressed by the Christian Diarist is also a Christian double bind, as it teaches that everything is determined by God, and then turns around and blames Satan when something bad happens, as they claim he is responsible for the evils in the world, when they just said that God determines everything!! Again, this lead to mental illness such as schizophrenia.
I hypothesize that this combination of factors including the double bind message of Christianity that he was taught and believed, combined with the stressors of his life, led him to his rampage, or it's the result of people believing the Christian teachings and doctrines that we live in a world that is dominated by Satan, which leads to immorality. Either way, it leads to immorality, and chaos, and Christianity provides believers with a basis for the belief that they are absolved from taking responsibility for their own bad behavior. Jesus does that for them.
It makes no difference whether James Holmes is/was practicing or to which "sect" of Presbyterianism he belonged to. The fact of the matter is, in our society Christians and non-Christians alike (even some atheists) are subject to the influences of Christianity as described above.
In this post, I am focussing on Christianity. There are also many atrocities that are committed as a result of some of the other religions. Mary Daly in Gyn/Ecology points this out with Chinese foot binding and the African circumcision of women, and Hindu "sati"--the burning of widows alive, and so forth. The focus of this post was to provide an explanation for the horrendous actions of James Holmes, and the moral laxity that is prominent in our society as a result of the Christian doctrines stated above, which is the best explanation for how these events came about.
Of course, I am open to the possibility that it was a natural cause, such as a physical condition. In other words, his mental state could be the result of a physical imbalance. But if this is the case, then the role of the Christian god is compromised, and we have come full circle on Rick Warren because he claims that James Holmes' actions are due to teaching students biology/evolution, when as he said:
"When students are taught they are no different from animals, they act like it."
And now, giving a naturalistic explanation for the horrendous actions of James Holmes, thereby undermining Christianity at its foundation, as they claim EVERYTHING is controlled by God. This would support the H-D method and the scientific explanation of the world, which is the best explanation.
Addendum 2:
Just to let everyone know, one of the main goals of writing this post is to argue for a naturalistic explanation for EVERYTHING--the good, the bad, and the ugly--including the best explanation for the existence of the universe. This, in conjunction with what I have already argued above, will result in the tendency to have less moral laxity, and the likelihood of less tragedies such as the one committed by James Holmes. I will write a second post now that I have received enough responses from Christians, atheists or otherwise to illustrate that Christians want to credit God for ALL the good things in the world, and blame Satan/naturalism/humans for ALL the bad things in the world--while at the same time believing God determines EVERYTHING. I will argue that theistic determinism and theistic free will is inconsistent, but that a certain sense of determinism and free will are compatible, and that everything in our world is better explained via natural explanations, as opposed to supernatural explanations. Part of a naturalistic explanation I will argue for, involves the notion that the self is in part explainable by every experience that a person has, and that involves any organization, school, relationships, etc., and if we knew all of these, and all their interrelatedness, we could just about predict a persons' behavior.
Please see the following comments on this post from Debunking Christianity, where it was also posted. These comments are a lead in to my next post on the subject.
Look what Lucian wrote. I will make a brief comment to Lucian before I go.
He thought he was the Joker.
64 comments:
Jesus never existed to begin with. Haven't you seen www.jesusneverexisted.com?
The whole basis of the christian religion is bogus since the "founder" never existed in the first place.
@ anonymous
Jesus may not have existed, but his followers DO. This is the problem. His followers believe in and follow a doctrine that tells them they are born sinners and cannot help but to do bad things--such as the tragedy this post was written about.
What you said about Pelagius in the first paragraph is a good reason to stay in the Christian churches and pretend to be Christian to push Christianity into a Pelagian direction! I mean seriously, if all the atheists in the world instead of raging against EVERY aspect of Christianity, played the good little Christian minister but taught Pelagianism from the pulpit, wouldn't it accomplish more?
"As Benge Nsenduluka pointed out in the article he wrote for the Christian Post, James Holmes was a "normal Christian boy" heavily involved in his local Presbyterian church."
Presbyterian church--OH MY GOD! That's not a "normal Christian boy"--that's a God-damned Calvinist! I knew those freaking Calvinists would go on a terrorist rampage some day. All that predestination crap is really bad for you.
To the first anonymous who said "Jesus never existed"--its not Jesus who taught original sin anyway, it was Paul. Predestination also doesn't come from Jesus--at least not in the synoptics. It can sort of be found in John, maybe, "nobody can come to me unless the Father draw them." If Christianity were based only on the synoptics, it would not be nearly as bad. A Pelagian Christianity based only on the synoptics we be far superior to what exists now to be sure.
Are you familiar with this study of schizophrenia http://tinyurl.com/2dlo7pf ? The authors point to religious delusions as symptomatic of more severe mental illness, noting that religious delusions are the least treatable of the various categories of delusion, and often associated with self-harm or attempts to harm others. 36% of inpatients in the highly Christian US displayed religious delusions, compared to 7% of inpatients in mostly atheist Japan. Here's the excerpt your article brought to mind:
Religious practices have been associated with a higher rate of religious delusions, but religiosity is not necessary for the development of religious delusions. All these studies show the importance of culture on the content of delusions.
So it's not that Christianity has a positive influence on our culture. Its influence isn't even benign or neutral! It's actively *harmful*.
Right off the bat, almost, I could read no more because I know you are wrong when you say people are more likely to 'sin, repent, sin' etc.. This is not true when a man is Born Again- and Truly Repents.. his lifestyle will change drastically- of course he may still have a weak area of vulnerability to sin- and this is where the relationship with Christ comes in and prayer and supplication and it is a very tough walk with Christ to come to terms with the True Facts that Jesus told us everything in Truth- When the Lord Saves a man, the man wants to express his Thanks and Praise by not sinning. The desire to do this is absolutely from the heart- and even so.. we will sin and this will hurt us very, very deeply. And this is repenting and praying and praying and the Lord will Chasten His sons.. and punish us. And these things are True. But He will also Heal, Care and Love us.. Transforming us through all the trials of a True Self-Awareness that we are not Righteous by nature.. but like turning around a massive ship- it takes time and effort and work... and this is the Walk with Christ.
People say "look if there was a God this (theatre shooting) type of thing would never happen"- And I say how confused satan has made you- God tells us we are 'murderous' people.. that we are liars, thieves, vain, proud- People are in denial.. God tells us what we are and then when we prove Him right- we say 'look there can't be a God'? Excuse me? What exactly are you saying? What a tricky bunch we all are, huh?
Decieving one another with tricky, slippery,contradictory, winding thoughts and words spewing forth from the evil tongue of a man- to keep ourselves from having to come to terms with the only Truth there is.. The Word of God.
Jesus is the only way to Life. If you want to Live. The alternative will leave you weeping, I absolutely promise.. it's time to Repent as a world. Turn everything around that we have turned upside down with pornography, technology, sin, pride, vanity, lust, sex, fornication, drugs, corruption, selfishness, hate and cold heartedness.
The Lord is Coming, soon.
Amen.
Funny thing is that James Holmes was himself a scientist and atheist. Southern California isn't exactly a hotbed of Christianity or Christian philosophy.
Also, your understanding of theology is complete nonsense. Your understanding of Christianity is formed by a half understood Protestant view of Christianity-- which is only 500 years old. You seem to have absolutely no idea about Orthodox Christian and Orthodox Jewish theology.
And the comments about Jesus not existing is ridiculous. The nonexistance hypothesis isn't taken seriously by historians-- including atheists. The worlds most famous atheist New Testament scholar is Bart Ehrmann, who HATES Christianity, and even he admits that Jesus existed.
It's just so interesting that when a secular atheist scientist goes on a rampage and kills dozens of people, atheist bloggers try to blame it on Christianity. Funny how most terrorists are either Muslim Fundamentalists or Atheist Intellectuals.
So you mixed together Catholic and Calvinist teaching, then critiqued it? It's an obvious straw man argument. It's extremely odd that you'd combine both theologies. My guess is that you don't know the difference. You combined Calvin's "Total Depravity" with Orthodox "Original Sin." You do realize that Calvin was fighting against the Orthodox/Catholic Churches and his belief was totally in reaction against Orthodoxy? His beliefs are not compatible with the Orthodox/Catholic Churches-- even by Calvin's own admission-- and trying to combine them is either a straw man argument or just shows your ignorance of Christian history and theology.
Your entire argument started with a Calvinist teaching on free will. The percent of Christians who are actual Calvinists (who deny free will) is extremely low. There are 2.1 billion Christians in the world. 75 million are Calvinist. That's 3.57% of Christians who are Calvinist. Most of them aren't even strict Calvinists, and thus don't deny free will. The other 96.43% of Christians do not deny free will. Even within America, the majority of Protestants in America are Armenian, not Calvinists. Only a very small percentage of Protestants are strict Calvinists and deny free will.
Basing your argument against Christianity with a "belief in the lack of free will," when the vast majority of Christians don't deny the existence of free will, is a clear straw man argument. Again, due to ignorance.
Also, your idea of repentance and sinning is completely misunderstood. You have clearly never actually read Pelagian. You probably got your information from another atheist blog, who got their information from another blog, who thought they once heard something from an atheist on the radio, who was quoting something from someone they couldn't remember, who made up information from something they think their grandmother said to make Christians look bad.
And to bring this back to James Holmes. He was from Southern California-- hardly an area influenced by Christian philosophy. He was an atheist scientist and extreme intellectual. Funny how all the terrorists are either Muslim Extremists or Atheist Intellectuals.
Anonymous2--Yes, I agree, that Christians would have accomplished much more had they adopted Pelagianism instead of the Augstinian doctrines.
Lambchopsuey--I have a degree in Experimental Psychology, and Freud illustrated the connections between religion and psychosis. It's a terrible thing....
Tell me something about God--you illustrate PERFECTLY what I mean by "double bind" when you say:
When the Lord Saves a man, the man wants to express his Thanks and Praise by not sinning. The desire to do this is absolutely from the heart- and even so.. we will sin and this will hurt us very, very deeply.
You say you are "born again" --but you cannot stop sinning. A double-bind. Really, you are no different than you were before, except you allow Jesus to take the responsibility for you. You still "sin." You are not really "born again" as a non-sinner, because you cannot help but to sin!
When you are "born again" according to Hebrews 10:26-27--you are no longer supposed to "sin wilfully" because if you do--you go to the pit of fire--no repentance.
@Anonymous 5--No, you seem to misunderstand, as James Holmes has been identified as a Presbyterian Christian.
Anonymous said on July 21, 2012 6:33 PM:
"So you mixed together Catholic and Calvinist teaching, then critiqued it? It's an obvious straw man argument. It's extremely odd that you'd combine both theologies. My guess is that you don't know the difference. You combined Calvin's 'Total Depravity' with Orthodox 'Original Sin.' You do realize that Calvin was fighting against the Orthodox/Catholic Churches and his belief was totally in reaction against Orthodoxy? His beliefs are not compatible with the Orthodox/Catholic Churches-- even by Calvin's own admission-- and trying to combine them is either a straw man argument or just shows your ignorance of Christian history and theology."
I'm a former Calvinist (Reformed Baptist, so not Presbyterian PCA but very similar in doctrinal essentials shared between the two such as God's sovereignty/predestination and Biblical inerrancy), now an atheist. And I am sorry, but you are mistaken, having obviously not even read the quoted source document for Presbyterian beliefs given in the blog post (and again, similar to what I believed in the past). You need to read your sources more carefully.
"Your entire argument started with a Calvinist teaching on free will. The percent of Christians who are actual Calvinists (who deny free will) is extremely low."
Are you aware that there is doctrinal distinction between "free will" and "free agency"? You do not give enough information in your statements to show whether or not you are aware of the distinction. Furthermore, there are degrees and variants of Calvinism, the definitions of which are not held in universal agreement. To say that Calvinists deny free will is at best, very imprecise.
"Even within America, the majority of Protestants in America are Armenian, not Calvinists."
The correct spelling is Arminian, as followers of Jacobus Arminius. Dictionary.com defines Armenian as "of or pertaining to Armenia , its inhabitants, or their language." I suppose that possibly there are Arminian Armenians and Calvinist Armenians, but I do not know. LOL.
"And to bring this back to James Holmes. He was from Southern California-- hardly an area influenced by Christian philosophy. He was an atheist scientist and extreme intellectual. Funny how all the terrorists are either Muslim Extremists or Atheist Intellectuals."
What are your sources for these assertions?
Also, I wonder if perhaps James Holmes was a devout Christian, and his studies in neuroscience led him to abandon his faith, and therefore caused severe mental distress? If I am not mistaken, the ship's captain for Darwin's voyage was a Christian, and lost faith in Christianity as a result of Darwin's Theory of Evolution, and committed suicide. I had severe mental trauma as a devout Calvinist Christian when I completely lost my faith in the inerrancy of the Bible and the Christian faith, and had suicidal thoughts for a very dark period of my life. I suppose the loss of sincerely held religious faith can affect individuals in very different and extreme ways.
@A is for Atheist-
"When the Lord Saves a man, the man wants to express his Thanks and Praise by not sinning. The desire to do this is absolutely from the heart- and even so.. we will sin and this will hurt us very, very deeply.
You say you are "born again" --but you cannot stop sinning. A double-bind. Really, you are no different than you were before, except you allow Jesus to take the responsibility for you. You still "sin." You are not really "born again" as a non-sinner, because you cannot help but to sin!
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Being Born Again of the Holy Spirit is a Gift that Jesus bestows on those whom God draws to Him. I can never 'earn' Salvation because of 'righteousness' and I know this because Scripture tells me "even in our most righteous acts, we are but filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6). Surely Salvation is a thing of the 'heart' and the 'Spirit' of a man-
Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
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Psalm 34:18 The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.
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When I was Saved, indeed I was brokenhearted and crushed, indeed. The Lord is True and Faithful. Amen to His Glory, He is TRUTH. And the Truth is in me. And the Truth indeed sets one free of many things.. the first thing is 'confusion' Truth kills confusion, how can their be confusion when Truth is Present? .. Once the Lord is within, you no longer have confusion. And in this, it becomes clearly evident that indeed I am a sinner.. Still struggling, despite our Salvation and Peter spoke about this.
9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
1 Peter 2: 11-12
Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. 12Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
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So by these words, we know that, though Saved, we are still tempted by sin.. this is Repentance to turn the grind of our nature against our nature for Jesus- We will fail, this will hurt and we will often cry tears of our own inability to be sinless. God does not lie. We are sinners.
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Do you think a man will ever be able to stand before God and say "well, what do you think about that God you said all men were sinners, but I was able to not sin"? In other words if God snapped his finger and made a man sinless.. what does that reflect of the man? Nothing. So, then the man remains the man, but the Spirit of Christ is within and the Truth is within... and this is the beginning of Sancfication of the Spirit by the Truth of the Word of God.
A walk in Christ. A Transformation Process.
We must also consider the 'state of the world' we currently live in. 'The end times' are to be the worst times. So, men living in the end times will be subject to the most sinful environment there ever was. And we are!
For this reason, Jesus said he will shorten the days for the elect. The times to come will continue to spiral towards the Coming of Christ. There will be no more "hoorahs" for this world- The end is here, what is there left? To become a wealthy nation AGAIN? What did wealth bring us? It bought sin for everyone. Money buys sin by and large and has and God has seen it. Everything has an end.. and in our case the world has absolutely reached it's end insofar as corruption, sin and faithlessness is concerned.
There come a time when the world no longer serves a purpose. The Harvest is over because the world only bares evil fruit. God destroys the world, then.
What, if not Holy things, will be the purpose of this world going on? If there be no further 'Salvation' of Souls. The end is here.
And God knows when this day has come. He also gave signs to look for during this time and they are indeed fulfilled.
Hebrews 10:26–27 (ESV)
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
-
"go on sinning" as in "as you sinned before receiving the truth"- which would be quite difficult to do.. but God knows and perhaps some have done so.
@Tell Me Something About God
"When you are born again you will not sin" -- well, if you church tells you that you can, then you will.
"But not if you are REALLY born again." Nobody gives a crap about who is really born again, silly. How about all those people who aren't really born again but who go to church all the time. Maybe if their church stopped teaching faith-onlyist insanity and taught morality they wouldn't go on rampages! They wouldn't rape! They wouldn't commit adultery!
You see, you don't have to be born again to NOT do those things. If you were taught from a youth to not do them or you'll go to hell, then you wouldn't do them, even if you're 'non-elect' or whatever.
People don't act according to metaphysical miracles like 'born again' or being 'elect' or 'non-elect': they act according to training and personality. Churches that TRAIN people to think they can sin sin sin and still go to heaven produce people who sin sin sin, and yet call themselves 'born again' all the same.
@Bryon Smith
"Furthermore, there are degrees and variants of Calvinism, the definitions of which are not held in universal agreement. To say that Calvinists deny free will is at best, very imprecise."
There are not, however, degrees of free-will, which is really what you are arguing. All Calvinists deny that we have free-will. Oh, sure, some will say "We have free-will; but its only free to sin." If this is what you mean when you make your moronic attempt to defend Calvinists and your fake claim that some beleive in free-will, its an epic fail! Free-will means you have the ability to do both good and bad and can choose either one. Anyone who tries to define it differently is a liar.
James Holmes was not a "Christian". In fact he had a profile on an adult website. He did not believe or follow the teachings of Christ. It's obvious.
Anonymous July 22, 2012 1:20 PM:
"There are not, however, degrees of free-will, which is really what you are arguing. All Calvinists deny that we have free-will. Oh, sure, some will say "We have free-will; but its only free to sin." If this is what you mean when you make your moronic attempt to defend Calvinists and your fake claim that some beleive in free-will, its an epic fail! Free-will means you have the ability to do both good and bad and can choose either one. Anyone who tries to define it differently is a liar."
First, I hate dealing with cowardly anonymous commentators. You are a good case-in-point as to the reason why. Your emotionally-laden invective might prove quite effective in a different social medium, but here it proves less than impressive. Are you an atheist yourself? Why do you comment anonymously?
No, I am not arguing there are degrees of free-will. I was simply explaining their theology, which I no longer hold to, and you can happily argue that particular interpretation and point with them. Some will be happy to engage you on that, if you should so choose. I am also not defending Calvinists in terms of agreeing with their religious philosophy, just attempting to clarify what it was that some Calvinists such as myself held to. Calvinist theology is rather complex, which seems to be a fact you do not yet appreciate (notice, I did not say it is correct, or that I agree with it, just that it is complex). Furthermore, my comment was not intended as a personal attack, just as a disagreement, and I explained my reasons. I do not think I really care enough to further argue this with you, though. Your last two sentences show a very simplistic understanding of the soteriological understanding found in Calvinism, but even if that is not obvious, your rather vitriolic tone in expressing your assertions is a dead giveaway. Personally, I despise Christianity and I particularly hate Calvinism, but I still think Calvinism is the best, if still imperfect, harmonization of the various Scriptural texts and doctrines in Christianity. Not all Christians or former Christians would agree, of course, because we are all different individuals with different perspectives. And I could be mistaken, which is a fact I do well to admit. But I have tried to sincerely study these doctrines as a believer, and now as a former believer, I strive for accuracy and understanding though all I know is small part (variant) of Calvinism which may not be mainstream, and respond accordingly. Anyone can hammer out invective on a keyboard, so how you respond further is up to you.
Anonymous July 22, 2012 1:49 PM:
"James Holmes was not a 'Christian'. In fact he had a profile on an adult website. He did not believe or follow the teachings of Christ. It's obvious."
You can't dismiss someone's Christianity so casually. What's obvious? That his behavior is hypocritical if what you allege is true (sorry, I do not know)? Granted. But do you know what he actually did or did not believe? And how would you know? As a Christian, I assumed that people had the Holy Spirit, which governed their behavior and/or punished them for bad behavior, and over time incrementally conformed the individual to the "likeness of Christ" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean in reality). That's all bullshit, of course. As an atheist, I have to classify people according to naturalist cultural and religious interpretations.
@Byron
I am so sick of the Calvinist hatred of anonymous comments. And in my estimation, you are still a Calvinist since you defend their moronic theology and rage against anonymous commenters. Why do I post anonymously? Because I'm too lazy to make a google account. I have a wordpress one, but getting wordpress account to work with blogspot seems complicated. I've tried several times and I can't find any information online on how to make it work. I don't need a google account for anything other than to comment here, and since who I am has nothing to do with what I say, I don't think its worth it. I'm not an atheists either, but I don't see what difference it would make to you if I was since you supposedly lost your faith. You already said YOU are an atheist, so why would it bother you if I am one? Ah, a freudian slip on the part of yours, you Calvinist pretending to be an atheist! I am a Pelagian is what I am.
"Anyone can hammer out invective on a keyboard" you say. Any Calvinist such as yourself can go online and claim to no longer be a Calvinist, and go around defending Calvinsts and doing what Calvinists always do "nobody understand our position; everything everyone says about it is just caricature!" If your position is that ridiculous then you ought to see how stupid it is! If seriously nobody is ever able to explain it, why do you hold it?
full-Pelagian, more a deist really but one who believes in a final judgment that is proportional
@Anonymous- 'if you can stop sinning and be like so for days, months, years and decades.. then you should do so. But if you cannot, then you should get on your knees and Glorfiy Jesus Christ for Saving sinners.
Let us all hope that we all know what sin is. To know this we know sin is even in our thoughts, our actions, our words even in the things we do and fail to do. It is in our charity, being honest, fair, loving always in every situation every single day because we have been healed of sin?
Does the Lord say he will heal us of sin? Or that we must come to know that we are sinners and call on Jesus to Save us?
Does this mean we can go on sinning "deliberately"? Well I think the Hebrew 10:26-27 answers this question with precise clarity. Repent! This is the active process of knowing the Word of God and resisting sin by temptation- Prayer and supplication all the days of our life for Grace from Jesus- to have days where sin seems less an occurence for us.
Who can say "I don't need a Savior"? None, no, not 1.
Believe in Jesus Christ, that He died because we would have all died of our own ability to gain Eternal Life. This is His Sacrifice for us. He Loved us first! He, Jesus, stood and said I Love them, I will go to them and my Love is willing to suffer and die for them. And this King, in Heaven with all His Glory with His Father- was granted this truly 'Good News' Request- And God said the sinners will have a Messiah- And His name is Jesus Christ, and God said 'He Is My Own Son'- He Loves you and will be the Lamb for you-
People- if our Lord, Jesus did not do this our lives would never be. For these things happened before the foundation of the world. This is the Lamb of God who did what? He took away our sin. Why? Because sin means death. The one who came between man and God- Do you know this is propitiation for us? So that we would not die?
Give love to Jesus. He suffered, just to be born a man from the Kingdom of Heaven. This is a most weeping worthy act of Love. He is Love beyond all Love could ever be! We are low, far beneath the heavens.. sinners.
Give Him Glory and Thanks and Praise and Know that it is not our 'acts' that amount.. but that it was what Jesus Christ did for us. That is the most unbelievable act of Love to ever exist. And these Words are True. He did not die in vain, for Jesus knew he would die for the ones who Loved Him. I am one who loves Jesus in my heart. I am one who has prayed to Him for decades, even since a child.
And was my life holy and pure? I sure thought it was. Oh, I thought I was an unbelievably admired man by the Heavenly Saints and by Jesus and God. What did the Truth in me reveal?
Hell. And that is where I was, when I died from a prescription pill overdose in 2009. How could a man who was once a boy who love Jeus go to hell? The Truth in me, became known.
Cont'd- Because I hadn't been Saved by the Lord, nor did I know my owh Truth and the Truth of Jesus' Sacrifice .. all muddled by my pride. Revealed to me and in 8 weeks the 8 year drug addiction was over. Tapered by some newfound strength- to wake up from having died from a toxic drug overdose that spanned the better part of a decade. A body sick with poison- And when I woke, the Holy Spirit was upon me- Oh, weeping for weeks on end every day weeping for forgiveness from the depths of which I never experienced before. Trembling, and weeping and Knowing. And now Testifying to you.
And now every Word of God is True for God is in me, the very God who wrote the Words. No confusion. God's Word is Truth.
In hell, I saw my name being burned away, one letter at a time. Flames upon me, roaring over me. my shoulder's moving up and down as if to somehow assist my shallow breaths. This description is accurate. In hell I also saw a loved one next to me who was already dead.
When I woke, my mouth opened wide, my hands held my head as if to contain all the sudden Truths that had befell me in a night.
The Power of the Holy Spirit was within me and never left me. The sorrow carried me through the entire detox and my body was healed.
And am I still a sinner?
Yes. But now I am Saved, despite myself. And this is what Salvation is- being Saved by Grace by a Loving Savior- by Faith. Not because I deserved it, so that I might boast.
Jesus said, "there is not one righteous among you, not 1".
Turn away from your video games they are satanic, and keeping you distracted from the Truth. Turn away from all the texting, facebooking, twittering, television, drugs, sex, money seeking, fame seeking, all these things are from the evil one keeping the world distracted from the Truth that leads us away from satan and towards Christ and Eternal Life.
If that sounds too boring for you, that is very sad, indeed because it means the devil has won you over, already. This is the Spiritual War that you are in!
God bless you.
I wrote a poem back then, very shortly after my experience of returning from hell. I wrote this poem in weeping, mourning, sorrow- tears dripping over the paper I penned it on.
if you want to post it, here it is;
Golden Shoes & Diamonds Too
I lost my way, far away from home.
My shoes I made from gold I never owned.
Still I walked like the righteous man, alone?
All alone in shoes with no soles.
The bottoms of my feet just blood and bone.
---
And where have I gone?
To some carnival of shame,
where fires burn away every letter of your name.
I look back and all I can see are bloodied footprints
upon the ruination of every thing that ever spoke of me.
--
My diamonds in hand, within a pill bottle they rattle.
Marching away towards nothing that matters.
I shine and I glitter,
all the way to Hell,
where my end will be bitter,
under this spell.
- Author notes
False Pride + Self-Destruction = Perdition.
@ Tell Me Something About God
What a strange deity you believe in. (A) It supposedly creates us 'perfect'. (B) Because of some 'apple scrumping' it thrusts 'sin' on all progeny thereafter.
However there is a let-out clause, hooray! (C) which is to believe that some Jewish born preacher (probably quite a sensible guru in his time) not only "Died for Our Sins" (whatever that means) but that he, this said Jesus, was not only the deity's son but was in fact the deity itself! Such a description would not seem out of place as a computer game scenario!
This Almighty Deity which created us perfectly has then, apparently, given us free will which absolves the deity from any responsibility for our actions. However when good things happen such as "Baby pulled from earthquake rubble" or "Patient cured of cancer after 10 hour operation" believers claim.... "It's God that did it". However, when a psychopath guns down lots of people: it's "The work of The Devil" (a fallen angel) another cast-member in the scenario over which the all-powerful creator now has no power of control. This is because the almighty creator has had to withdraw to his safe citadel, Heaven, while his arch-enemy, Satan, runs amok on earth and dwells in his subterranean retreat, Hell.
A great plot line, don't you think? I see a movie coming on ... but first the book. Now I shall need a few scribes to help me write that!
Are we all in some great experiment run by this deity who has to be one very strange dude having the power to create us (and the whole universe) perfect and then start messing things up. Presumably for its own enjoyment or is it, in truth, just pretty inept or, may be, non-existent? And the followers expect us to WORSHIP this "All powerful Creator" ... get a life!
And "The Lord is Coming, soon." ... I would like a definition of 'soon' as a certain Mr Camping got it wrong several times.
Oh, but I nearly forgot:- Matthew 24:36 a message from a contradictory book written by men, edited by men and promulgated by men.
"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only" .... Yes folks, the right hand won't know what the left hand is doing.
So there you have it this flawed deity suffers from dissociative identity disorder too!
Jesus, that sensible worldly guru, must be cursing Saul of Tarsus as he slowly turns in his grave. But hey, I've got a great plot line .... now where are those scribes?!
Anonymous the Atheist
Man is perfect before sinning. But would a man be anything at all if he was not self-governing? What? God should control us and what we do? If this is the case then we are not truly living, autonomous beings.. Is there 'life' without 'autonomy'? If so, explain. I mean we're only being ourselves, right? So, then what kind of people are we when we govern ourselves? I think God has a right to know. Heck, I think we have a right to know and time unravels these Truths. Yeah, sure we want to say 'God why did you make me like this' but in Truth God gave you Life and Life is Autonomous- It is your own nature (sinner) that is the problem and that is precisely why you are a 'man'. Cast down to the earth to Repent or perish by the Sword- which is the Word of God. < The Bible.
I mean to be autonomous is to self govern and make one's own choices and decisions. In the telling of Adam and Eve they were tempted, now let it be known that God tells us so much in this short story about Adam and Eve. He tells us about 'obedience', 'disobedience', 'temptation', and 'sin' (which is not doing what God tells us is right to do)- and then there is 'consequence'- You know it's so interesting in this recent occurrence in Colorado- Here we have a young man who lives out all these things I have just listed here- The killer had 'autonomy', was tempted, did not listen to God's Word (disobyed), killed (sinned- Thou shalt not kill). And now what is the whole world waiting for? His 'consequence'. Would you look at that? It's as if we are all Adam's and Eve's in this world and you know what, we are! God is always showing and telling us things for our sake!
The same is so of God's Word and Law- God is Pure and Holy- He doesn't want us in his Presence. First of all it's not possible for us to be in His Presence without being Washed by Christ. There are consequences to God's Laws and He has told us what they are. We all have our own choice how to live our life. But, here is where things get murky.. you see people think if they 'just be good' that God will have nothing to hold against them. And people think if God holds something against me even though I haven't killed anyone, or committed a serious crime that left me in jail' than that God is just not a God I want to believe in. This is yet another choice.
I want to talk to you about the Soul- Do you or does anyone think their Soul is a simple thing? To have consciousness and an ability to actually do or say many, many things of all sorts, kinds, types and forms. We are like Living Calculator's always taking in stimuli and calculating that stimuli and doing this 'living math' and breaking the stimuli down and coming up with some 'response' (answer)- and we do this all throughout our days- Friends, you are a free man free to do your will on earth. God has set instruction for us. We can be really good, or somewhere in the middle, or really bad. And the bible is screaming out to us- of the 'Do These things' and "Don't do these things"- And here is why we need to be concerned with 'Works'. It is not because 'Works' in of themselves are the deciding factor of Salvation, but I'll tell you about the nature of 'works'-
Cont'd-
The nature of 'works' are such that 'works' are like pathways- they lead us in a direction.. ("a little leaven, leaven's the whole lump" -Gal. 5:9) the direction is either 'toward' Christ or 'toward' satan. Therein lies the danger of the slippery slope of evil works.
Remember, Jesus told us that satan had offered Him all the Kingdoms of the world, if Jesus would just worship him once. What does this tell us? A few things. First thing I notice is that 'satan posesses the kingdoms on earth, and offers them to those who will worship him' (ruler of the world). And Jesus acknowledges this by 'rejecting him' notice Jesus did not say 'you have no kingdoms'? Jesus also then tells us that we must reject satan's offers and he will offer all of us 'things' for worshiping him in one way or another. But we are to Know this from this story- Matthew 4:10 "10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only. The Lord is speaking to us. How many hints do we need?
The next thing this tells us is that satan gives prosperity (all these kingdoms will be yours) to those who 'worship' him. So, look around in the world.. who has possession of the 'kingdoms'? The wealth, the Power.. the elites. So, then, we look at this world of 'money' and what do we see? Do we see 'love'? No we see numbers, not people. We see their profits as most important, not the sorrows of the hearts of the less fortunate who by this worlds standards never, ever had a chance. We see the broadcasting of media networks all owned by the elites broadcasting satan's message of 'flesh lusting', sex, crime, murder, gossip, adultery, pornography, materialism's of the world- A ceaseless effort to lead souls away from the Truth of Christ, to the lusts of the world.
So, then what should we do? Should we say in our attitudes "God I'm pretty good, so I'm not worrying"- Well yeah that would be fine to say if the Word supported that attitude. But it does NOT! Here we go back to Adam and Eve about 'Obedience' and 'consequence'.
Why is it necessary to Repent? It has to do with those pathways- of sin. That we 'men' self-justify because 'hey I gotta have some fun I mean it's natural and only human'? No. It's sinful and you who are a 'man' love sin. That is what is actually and really going on. But you see it the way you choose to see it and in this you are blinding yourself to the Truth for the sake of your sinful nature- for its preservation in your life. Tough Truths they are probably making you very mad as you read, in fact I know they are- because it's like putting salt on the wound- or Christ over satan. It hurts a man to do this. I know, I am a man, it once hurt me too. Stay with me you are not as yet Saved.
To not 'see' this is to not 'Repent'. Now the first thing we have to do to secure our Salvation is 'Believe on Jesus'. If we 'believe' on Jesus it is not to say that 'I believe Jesus is the son of God and died on the cross'. No, not so fast. To Truly Believe on Jesus Christ we must believe that, yes, He is the Son of God and that- yes, He did die for 'me' and 'you' on the Cross! Yes!
But do we stop believing there? Oh no, come on people I know you know better than this. No, we start our 'Belief' there! Then, we find out what our Savior 'said' to us. Here comes the 'True Belief' now. We Believe in the Words that Jesus Spoke and that the Words He Spoke came from the Father! John 12:49 .
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Cont'd 2-
Deuteronomy 6:5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
John 14:15 "If you love me, obey my commandments.
==============
So, then what if I choose an evil pathway? Will it be like 'leaven' and 'leaven' my whole life? Yes, of course it will, and here again for those who are on a pathway away from Christ is the 'Repentance'- Turn Around! The Lord is ever merciful to those who Turn Around (Repent)- Joel 2:12
============
Jesus has told us He did not come here to 'Condemn man' but to 'Save man'. We must Repent and turn the Lord. We must pray to the Lord that with His help we will have the Truth to help us in Knowledge- Oh Lord, lift the veil of pride and take away the grip of satan upon me. There is True Truth in Jesus. The Word is the Truth. The Spiritual War is Truth. Our Souls are in the balance- Be Wise and reconsider all things of disbelief in Christ. And may God be with you when you decide on your considerations.
God bless.
I have another poem; if you like post it.
Poisonous Seed
I went for a walk,
What did I see?
Limbs full of fruit
All for me!
But as I drew near,
A sign became clear-
"A Poisonous Seed Bore This Tree"
I looked upon it's branches,
A massive Tree!
With billions of apples
All for me-
But all I could think of,
Was the poisonous seed-
And every apple that I saw
I had no trust in, indeed.
I could never bite into
A poisonous thing-
For it would poison me, too
Undoubtedly-
And so I stood there,
Afoot Of this tree,
when I noticed in the bark
Leveled with my feet
Etched deep in the trunk
"EARTH"
Below that
"Adam & Eve"
And I thought to myself,
I am an apple on this tree.
@ July 21, 2012 6:10 PM Fail... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Price
What the bible says about cannibalism.
Christian bible god is pro-people eating their children.
Leviticus 26:29
“You shall eat the flesh of your sons and of your daughters.”
Jeremiah 19:3
“And say, Hear the word of the Lord, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. Thus says the Lord of hosts, The God of Israel: Behold, I am going to bring such evil upon this place that the ears of whoever hears of it will tingle.”
Jeremiah 19:9
“And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and they shall eat each one the flesh of his neighbor and friend in the siege and in the distress with which their enemies and those who seek their lives distress them.”
What the bible says about little girl rape.
Christian bible god saves man, Lot, who offers, NO begs, that a gang of rapist men take his two virgin daughters and gang-rapes them.
Genesis 19:8
“Look now, I have two daughters who are virgins; let me, I beg of you, bring them out to you, and you can do as you please with them. But only do nothing to these men, for they have came under the protection of my roof.”
Numbers
31: 17 "Now therefore, KILL every male among the little ones, and Kill every woman who is not a virgin.
31:18 “But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves."
Christian bible god telling soldiers to rape twelve and thirteen year old virgin girls.
Peter one of Jesus Christ chosen twelve calls Lot, a man who offered up two virgin girls to be gang-raped, righteous. Did Jesus Christ know Peters character before choosing him? Yes he did, and he chose a man, Peter, who called pro-gang-rape of virgin girls “Lot” righteous. Jesus Christ did not pick any sexually abused women as apostles, only rape is irrelevant men.
2 Peter 2:7
“And He rescued righteous Lot, greatly worn out distressed by the wanton ways of the ungodly and lawless.”
Obviously gang rape of virgin girls is very Christian-bible-god, godly.
The Pro-Rape bible consistently condemns none virgin women and girls. But it does not consistently condemn the men who rape them.
The Ten Commandments does not say, Do not Rape. Jesus Christ never said, Do not Rape.
Christian bible god is a happy-go-lucky self proclaimed baby killer.
Isaiah 13:16
“Their infants also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.”
Ezekiel 9:6
“Slay outright the elderly, the young man and the virgin, the infant and the woman; but do not touch or go near anyone whom is the mark. Begin at My sanctuary. So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple [who did not have the Lord's mark on their foreheads].”
2 Kings 2:23-24
“He went up from Jericho to Bethel. On the way, young [maturing and accountable] boys came out of the city and mocked him and said to him, Go up [in a whirlwind], you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!
And he turned around and looked at them and called a curse down on them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and ripped up forty-two of the boys.”
2 Kings 15:16
“Then Menahem smote Tiphsah and all who were in it and its territory from tirzah on; he attacked it because they did not open to him. And all the women there who were with child we ripped up.”
Hosea 13:16
“Samaria shall bear her guilt and become desolate, for she rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women shall be ripped up.”
1 Samuel 15:3
“Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.”
PSALM 137:9
“Happy and blessed shall he be who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock!”
"TIME ranks Southern Baptists' rejection of sex-offender database as a top "underreported" news story of 2008"
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm
To all the 'quotes' above.. that attempt to make an argument against the Creator and Giver of all Life- I will try to say a lot in a few words, if possible.
Jesus Christ is the 'Good News'. I refer you to the Sermon on the mount- The 'traits' that you look for that you have not found 'above' in your references- you will find 'Love' in Chrst. The interesting thing about you, though, is that you don't believe in Christ, either.
And God knows this and Christ knows this. Even I know this.
There is no arguing with a man who is hellbent on dying. Though I do wish to give you encouragement and the only encouragement there is on the face of this earth is 'Repentance' and Jesus Christ.
So, in other words do not pretend to point out things of God that you say are 'terrible'. Because you while God's Wrath is certain FURIOUS- He is a Holy God and a Loving God. Which side of Him do we bring out? There is a question.
God says to believe in His Son. The Christ who died on the Cross. Maybe you just don't grasp the Sacrifice of this- that a Glorious King perfect and blemish free would come down to an earth full of filthy sinners and die for those He Loved- even sinners, the Lord Loved and the Father Chose from the sinners His Elect in the world. And Jesus explains this in the 'prayer for the disciples' John 17- clearly, right out in the open lays this out. How things work. But who even knows of this prayer that Jesus spoke? Who?
I do. Amen.
I did not ask to be created or given LIFE. If your pro- RAPE god was going to force be to be born against my will it seems the pro-rape-sky-tyrant could have at least created me were I could not be raped. My being born did me no favors but it did benefit the bible loving southern Baptist Christian man who sexually abused me the first ten years of my life.
Jesus Christ is not the good news! Telling some one if they do not kiss a sky tyrants ass he will set them on fire for eternity, if that some ones child does not kiss a sky tyrants ass the sky tyrant will set their child on fire for eternity. Telling a girl a god created her were she could be raped, created men were they could rape her, knew she was going to be raped and forced her to be born any way, could have stopped it once it started and just sat up there watching. Yes, this is good news to serial perverts.
Like all Christians when you hear something that does not flatter your ego or benefit your agenda you immediately dismiss it from your self-serving, self-elevating mind. Why don’t you think for a few days about what I said? Answer, because if you thought for a few days you might become an atheist and you love your pro-little-girl-rape bible, you want it to be true because it tells abusive men everything they want to believe.
I was born and raised in the southern Baptist wife beating convention, went to Christian home school, and went to church three times a week for the first fifteen years of my life, I was a Christian, I sang “Jesus loves me”, and “He has the whole world in his hands”, my whole childhood.
I was being sexually abused by a bible loving Christian man, I begged your pro-little-girl-rape god to help me, save me, stop it. He did nothing! Get your head out of your ass liar.
Your pro-rape-god needs to repent for creating children were they can be raped, then lounging about his self-appointed-throne as they are RAPED.
A loving god does not create children were they can be raped, then long about his throne as they are raped, gang raped, sexually tortured, and sold into child sex slavery. But I know from physical experience that child rape is rampant in the evil sewage that is Christianity.
I grasp that you and your Christian buddies read an old book that is pro-female-submission to men, pro-women and little-girls suffering in child birth, pro-little-girl-rape and it turned you own so much you pretend it is true, and peddle it around as true.
Basically you are pretending something perverted, demeaning, and hurtful to sexually abused women and little girls is true because it gives you a misogynistic sadomasochistic thrill.
You talk like a deranged cult member who lives under a rock.
I think it is a common practice for 'men' who are 'abused' by 'men' to be angry with God. I am sure you are angry with the man who did this to you also. But I think we can make the mistake of misplacing our anger on God, rather than hear what Jesus says to us about 'men' being sinners and doing horrific things here on the earth.
The fact however, remains, that we are all sinners and have been lumped together as so. The bible tells us that we have all fallen short of the Glory of God. And God being the Decider of all things has decided that in our sin we have separated ourselves from Him.
God has also laid out the Truth that the wage for the sinner is 'death' and I believe this is because 'sin' is like a disease that we have brought upon ourselves at a certain point (perhaps before the foundation of the world) and it is a 'Terminal Condition' meaning it only spreads and grows until it brings forth death.
Therefore we are separate from God. Now, Jesus has called Himself the names "Healer" and "Physician"- Jesus 'Takes away our Sin'. So, then, what's the point of it all? Well, the point is that we have to Believe what God says. And God said it through the mouth of a 'man' Jesus Christ. We must Repent of our condition. Sure, I think each and every one of us can point a finger at another man and say 'he did this to me' or 'she did this to me' but the Truth is no matter what a man does or a woman does.. it is Salvation that overrides all things because even if your life was perfect as a man in our own opinion.. if you were granted Salvation as a man, you would perish, regardless. If you want a perfect life, you should Repent because in Heaven there is no sin, nor sinners.
Now, Jesus knowing fully the condition of humanity having been a man Himself- understands, again, fully- all things of being a man. The things of filth. Of sin. of Pride and corruption and self-interested prosperity and the indifference to any other but the self. As well as the murderous hearts, lusting hearts for flesh and disgracing one another in sexual immorality-
These acts are abominations and must be dealt with and in the world these things are being dealt with and the Lord is separating the wheat from the chaff.
You don't have to like it. But it doesn't change the fact that 'it' is what 'it' is. I pray that you begin to not only remove your anger from God, but that the Truth will come upon you and in that you will even know that the ones who cause us to suffer are themselves lost, blind and perishing.. this is more sorrowful than you might presently know. This is why we must even forgive those who cause us the most suffering of our lives.
Jesus was on the Cross, whipped to inches of His Life- and then hung on the Cross He carried up the mount- And then on the Cross his shoulders were separated and he hung to die. Think of Jesus Christ on that Cross. And yet, before He died He said "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do".
Before having been given eyes by the Lord, none of these things did I see. But now, having been given eyes by the Lord, I Know.
Cont'd-
And just the same as Jesus Knew, I now who has Christ indwelling, also know that 'they know not' And this is all about Faith. Faith is what brings forth Salvation and it is why God the Father draws us to His Son, Jesus. When God draws us to His Son we are Baptized of the Holy Spirit- A New Creation. In this we are very different, for many doors have been opened to us. Much Knowledge is made Known.
And we only want to give it to you the best way we can. And Jesus did this also. But, Jesus was God. I am a man, who needed a Savior. And by God's Grace, I was Saved by my Faith. Not because I was worthy of anything but only because I believed in and loved Jesus truly in my heart. The heart that God can search and Know in Truth that I my Faith was Saving Faith in the Fire.
I pray for all to surrender their angst to the Lord and the war they are in that is fueled by confusion. I pray that we sit down and weep because Repenting is a sorrowful act. The breaking down of walls of pride and sin and rebellion against God when in Truth we are just sinners, who want to be able to sin but God is telling us we cannot sin and be with Him.
Amen, my the Lord Jesus have Mercy on us all.
Amen.
please correct this;
if you were granted Salvation as a man, you would perish, regardless. If you want a perfect life, you should Repent because in Heaven there is no sin, nor sinners
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to this; if you were not granted Salvation as a man, you would perish, regardless. If you want a perfect life, you should Repent because in Heaven there is no sin, nor sinners
Me Something, I don't think your long-winded psycho-babel is helping your case at all.
Now an earlier female anonymous has said: "I grasp that you and your Christian buddies read an old book that is pro-female-submission to men, pro-women and little-girls suffering in child birth, pro-little-girl-rape and it turned you own so much you pretend it is true, and peddle it around as true."
I don't think this is entirely fair. I'm sorry about your situation, and I understand questioning why God would create people in a way that they are capable of being raped. He could easily have invented some sort of forcefield that could be naturally projected from the private areas to protect against that, so why didn't he? I get being mad about that.
However, the subject of female submission to men in Christianity is not about making them submit to illicit sexual acts. Female submission in Christianity is for the purpose of protecting their chastity, actually, and as pointed out by some atheists, it serves a evolutionary function. See Dia Pente's article Why Are Religions Misogynist? Religions are mysoginist, he writes, because females are more scarce than males in this world, and hence more vital to the survival of the species. Males are a dime a dozen, so we send them out to war to die, but we keep the women at home because they need protecting. If we don't protect women, we die out. Evolution made religion this way! Its a very interesting concept. And Christianity teaches that a WIFE must submit to her HUSBAND not that a little girl must submit to a rapist. Your emotions are clouding your judgment on this, and I get that. But lets deal with what it really teaches. Now, I know, I wasn't raised in the horrible CALVINIST SBC. I was raised in a good Pelagian denomination, where the Biblical doctrine of a WIFE's submission to her HUSBAND was taught. Maybe in the SBC they DID teach that a little girl must submit to a rapist -- I don't know, honestly. I wouldn't put it past a CALVINIST to teach that, but its not normative Christianity. In any case, the normative position (of a WIFE's submission to her HUSBAND) can't be blamed just on Christianity, as it is a theme in all old religions, and as it was produced by evolution itself.
Me Something, you say you ignored everything I wrote after my first sentence because you were angered by it. First, you should learn to control your anger. Secondly, I don't care. Thirdly, only the first sentence was directed to you anyway. Fourthly, this is my last comment. Enjoy being an ostrich with your head in the sand.
Thought this was good for men to see. A reply to a comment;
@givinr What I have done can not be reported. Was it recorded by me? 45 years. Shall I lay out all I've done? What have I done? I can't remember? Does it matter?
It doesn't matter. The 'things I've done' will not get me into Heaven and there are very 'simple to understand' reasons for this. If you do not Fear God and live in sin and do not Repent your path in sin will lead you away to a place where you will not have any relationship with the Lord, Jesus- Who is the Savior. You have heard that Jesus will tell many "depart from me, I never knew you, you worker of iniquity (sin)" /Mt. 7:23/- Many will think they know Jesus and that Jesus knows them, but what Jesus knows is that many believe they are 'worthy' of salvation either because of their pride or they think they were 'good'. Nothing is further than the Truth. You are a sinner, and for that alone, you are sentenced to death. Do you want to think of a man who is in prison who has done a thing that has landed him in a 'death sentence' to tell you that 'he was good in jail' and wants to be let free? Don't say that such a request is unreasonable or even crazy, and then do the same thing yourself! You have been sentenced because of your sin to 'death'- /Rm 6:23/ "For the wages of sin is death"
Listen to the Words Jesus spoke. They were spoken by God-
John 12:49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
If you are Righteous because you Fear God, it is much better than to say "I am righteous so that I will enter into Heaven" Man, you are already guilty of sin. Did Jesus not tell us that even in our "most righteous acts, we are but filthy rags" "Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags"
You are filthy, already of sin and multitudes of sin. So, then will you go then before the Father who is Pure? You who think you did some good things? But are filthy! Rev 3:17 'You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked'.
And so how then and who then can go before the Father? None! Here is your answer "John 14:6 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
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Psalm 51:2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
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This is what Jesus does. We must be Saved and Cleansed by Jesus, the Lamb of God. The Son of God. This is how it works and this is the only Truth there is. The only Truth you need to believe in. Believe in Jesus Christ and ye shall not perish, but have everlasting life- Amen.
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You are in 'the world' and have arrived here precariously. It was not your power to arrive here, nor will it be your power when your flesh dies.
Go, Believe ...
I thought it were indeed very interesting, those stats that suggest.
Quote: "36% of inpatients in the highly Christian US displayed religious delusions, compared to 7% of inpatients in mostly atheist Japan "
But im not so very surprised at all.I would really like to see a link to also be able to have a good read of these stats.
The Christian cult i left has some very big problems with much the same sort of things.
Gandolf
Interesting to read.
Quote "36% of inpatients in the highly Christian US displayed religious delusions, compared to 7% of inpatients in mostly atheist Japan"
Im not at all surprised. Bit id still be interested to have a read of these stats myself. Does anyone have a link ? they can point me to.
The Christian cult i left ,also has some big problems with this kind of thing.
Gandolf
@Gandolf- yeah 'religious delusions' may indeed be 'delusions' at times. But what about "all the time"?
Well, you know as a born again Christian, I do have to admit I am not the way I once was. Nor am I like almost every one I know. It's true and believe me I know it's not 'humanly' good to be alone, or isolated. Jesus knew that the way God Created us, it would indeed be very difficult for born again Christian's to co-exist and live in this world with unbeliever's who by and large make up a large portion of this planet's inhabitant's. Now, I'm not speaking of 'catholics' who are luke warm and living for the world and believing that somehow despite being contrary to God's Word .. that they are also somehow 'living for God' too? It's not really possible. God says if you are a friend of the world, you are an enemy of God. And how can this be? And what does this mean?
Well, the world is ruled by satan. So who could love the world (satan) and God? So here you go.. now you can see the difficulty a True Born Again Christian faces in the world. And here now I point you all to John 17- where Jesus is actually praying for us. Our Savior, who knew our plight. The plight of the elect, the 'Born Again'. Oh, these Truths are The Truth! Christ indwelling in Spirit in the man Born Again, is in constant resistance to the world. However, God did not lie, nor can He lie. And by that I mean 'His Grace is Sufficient'. And so, you see, a True Born Again man with Christ Truly Indwelling.. will not be in a mental hospital, and most won't even be on any psychotropic medications (myself, I take vitamins only, don't smoke, drink, no drugs- but I love coffee and I thank God for coffee beans because coffee is delicious) Ok, I digress, but people and understandably, so, will try to find all sorts and kinds of ways to explain away and ostracize the elect of God, the Born Again Children of God- who are in this world with them. And again, Jesus said "if the world hates you, know that it hated me first". Amen. Jesus speaks to His Children in the world. Amen. We are only in this world because we have sinned, too, just like the unbeliever and the non-elect. But for God's good pleasure He did elect those whom He knew would be given to Jesus to Save. And for these, Christ died on the Cross.
The good news is that through the elect, those who believe in their message, might also be Saved by 'believing in Jesus Christ'. How? Through Testimony. Don't run and jump to conclusions- in Truth you know no more the mysteries of God, than you even know of how you precariously arrived in this world through your mother's womb. This is True. So be wise in cementing your beliefs, lest they are entirely in Christ, Jesus.
If anyone is displaying religious delusions, its Tell Me Something. Seriously, Tell Me Something, what's the deal? Are you using a random text generator to create this psycho-babel for you or are you actually thinking all that up yourself? You makes Christians look crazy; perhaps that is your goal!
No "Anonymous"- it's not "crazy" the things I speak of have been revealed to me because of my Faith. And because of my Faith I have been Saved and given Knowledge and Truth. I have already explained, I'm pretty sure, if you go back and read some of the comments I've made here- I explained how before I was Saved my eyes were veiled. Look, God lits Veils. Sorry you don't know or see that because your Veils are still covering your eyes. Of course you will think I am crazy. Of course! Here Jesus even eludes to this Himself. Jesus eludes to every thing a mind will think of. That's Glory, my friend.. here is what Jesus said;
John 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
----
Now let me share this with you; Jesus explains to us that God must draw us to Jesus. "God chooses to do this, not us"
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John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
==========
John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
===================
Now here is the thing about the Faithful man- Who, if anyone has the potential to believe in the 'heavenly things' upon this earth? It is the 'faithful'. God knows who the faithful are. Faithful men are Spiritual men who believe in Spiritual things. In this Faith, the Father draws us to the Son- We are God's Children- because we have faith and believe in Jesus' Word. Now if there were no such a God as Jesus (forgive the thought, Lord)- then in Truth there would be no Holy Spirit or Salvation. But indeed the Holy Spirit baptizes and the Lord Saves- So, this is not a debate. Maybe it is for you, because you do not possess it. And so what will you do? You will deny it. I have it and what can I do? I can tell you about it. And this is precisely the way God designed it. You will not have it, unless God gives it to you. But if I tell you about my own Salvation and even give Testimony- that is designed to bare the fruit of Faith in you.
Okay. So, before you begin throwing words around like 'this guy is crazy' or 'that guy is crazy' hey no one cares when you say things like that. To you crazy is what you don't know or haven't experienced. That's not crazy, that "unknown". So, if anything, just be curious and don't close yourself off to they mysteries- God made things mysterious for His own pleasure because if not a mystery- beyond a man's comprehension.. that man will exploit it. and destroy it and blaspheme even all the sacred things that God cherishes.
Just so you know.
Hi Tell Me Something About God .
Im an atheist but i sure dont hate christians. I might not like some of their beliefs, or like many things that they do. But fact is i still have a number of friends who are christian. I will admit my christian friends are mostly of the liberal kind.
But the big problem for faith believers ,specially the Christian type ,is what was included in their holy book , was decided on by mere men anyway.They chose what should be included, and what should not be included And these different scripture , give a number of different point of views ,thus helping to make christianity almost seem kind of schizophrenic in nature.
And that creates a big problem for christian folk , because evidently Jesus was friendly toward all sorts of people. He even invited an atheist to sit at the table , at his last supper. So you cannot say Jesus didnt want people to keep company with atheists.
The trouble start when some other folks opinions also have been added to your holy book.And thus christians can almost seem kind of schizophrenic in nature. Half the time, it almost seem like they dont really know whether they meant to be likeing or hating people.
This is one reason why holy books are not been so helpful. What you wrote above is from the book of John , yet you say its what Jesus said.It may even be like me trying to suggest what your granddad said. I might of heard a story ,from somebody, who also heard a story, from somebody else, who had also heard a story from another guy . And so on
So by the time i finally get to write it all down . By then it could have become the most warped story, ever been written by man. For all we know here today.
Yet the evidence we do see here today . Shows us plainly , that there is no good evidence available, to suggest any God even seem likely to exist.That is the evidence we see today
Now that sort of evidence ,seem to far outweigh whatever been written in some old holy book.Written by ancient very "superstitious people" , who back then didnt even have proper scientific ways, to be able understand what caused ,earthquake , tsunami ,lightning and suchlike.
Thinking about that ,its little wonder, they may have thought Gods might exist
Gandolf
Tell Me Something, if your message was "God exists; He wants us to be moral; He will punish us proportionally for the bad we do." Well, then, you wouldn't be crazy. But since your message is "God exists; he wants us to be moral; but we can't; so he changed his mind and said just have faith; and he will send those without faith to burn forever regardless how moral they are; and he will take up to heaven those who have faith regardless how immoral they are" therefore you are crazy.
It doesn't just work like that. Faith leads us to other places.. the point is 'transformation' and this takes work. The first thing we have to come to understand is our 'sin' and our condition. God knows that through faith and the Word we will transform and 'change', less apt to have a ladee da attitude toward sin. Again, this is why God said it is the beginning of wisdom to 'Fear God'. Why? Because if Fear gets us on the road to tranformation, lucky us. Whatever it takes.. Jesus also gave us this hint in telling us to 'cut our eye out' or "cut if off" with regard to our hand if it is causing us to sin. Now this is metaphorical not literal.. for example if your computer is causing you to masterbate and have thoughts of adultery- these actions will more than likely lead a man to actually do these acts and not just view these acts. So, 'cut it off'? It's truly better to just throw away that computer so it will not tempt you. Jesus knows the way we are, we are 'sinners'. Jesus is teaching us through His Word how to begin to transform. And, Jesus baptized through the Holy Spirit. Baptism is not just 'water' when we are infants- There also "must" be baptism in the Holy Spirit. This is the real baptism of the two- And John the Baptist highlighted this by saying "I mus decrease and He must increase"- In other words baptism in the Holy Spirit is clearly the True Baptism.
Mark 1:8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
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Acts 1:4–5
And while staying with them he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me, for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
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Then we noticed that Luke mentioned three things the apostles needed if they were to be the kind of instruments through which the living Jesus could do his work and speak his Word.
The Need to Be Baptized with the Holy Spirit
But verses 4 and 5 go on to show that there is another utterly crucial thing that the apostles needed in order to be the most effective instruments in the hands of the living Jesus. They needed to be baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Tell me something about God said
Quote : "this is why God said it is the beginning of wisdom to 'Fear God'. Why? Because if Fear gets us on the road to tranformation, lucky us. Whatever it takes.. "
The bible said
Quote : "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." http://bible.cc/1_john/4-18.htm
Hope you dont mind me pointing out ,but it seem your God sound far more like a tyrant . A real Kim Jung-il type. "You better love me or else !", type of guy
So whats the rub with that then ?
Gandolf
We don't need to fear God because God is a tyrant. We need to fear God because we are sinners who need God's forgiveness and mercy.
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Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
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Nothing is more True. I know of this, personally in my Spirit. I have witnessed this, personally! When we die, our Spirit is on the other side- instantaneously- Here is Testimony- I have died and been there. I am back here. Lucky me? Yeah.. but lucky you too who hear my words and believe in Jesus because of them. It is Jesus who allowed me to be here to tell you them. So, what do I do, boast? No, I tell you the Truth, I am the Lord's Servant and yours. The biggest picture, is Salvation of as many Souls as possible. If you sprinkle seed, you will want all the seed to bare good fruit. You are a seed. Turn, man from sin. Do the fruits that bring forth Salvation. This is the Kingdom's work.. the prayer's of the Saints.. the Battles of the Angel's.. and the work of the Lord through the Gospel, the Word. The Holy Spirit. All Glorious. All True 'His Word Be Done'. I tell you His Word Will Be Done!
Give all the Glory to Jesus. He is the King who sits at the Right Hand of God the Father in Heaven- As it is written He is the 'Way' to Salvation- The Truth- there is only 1 Truth of which to Live by- and The Life- The Resurrection to Eternal Life.
All these things are True. I have not just read them.. but I had read or heard them but I did not 'know' the same way as being knowledgeable now because I have experienced the Word, firsthand and personally. I am a Witness to the second death, the unquenching fire, the sorrow and weeping (me, a man who barely shed a tear) for months. What was I weeping for?
For forgiveness. Why? Becaus the 'Truth' was in me and that 'Truth' in the spiritual world was 'me knowing that I deserved, justly, to die' and what does a man do when he knows he deserves to die? (which we all do)- He asks for mercy. Or more likely, will weep for it from the heart. Jesus is a very Merciful Lord. But! I would highly recommend that no one have an attitude that His mercy is manipulatable- Remember Jesus searches the hearts of all men and if the Lord does not Save you, you are under the Judgement of the Law which is death.
Cont'd-
and nothing but death. How can I explain it? It's as if no one cares for the unsaved on the other side. That is how I experienced it. There are not these extreme emotions going on of sorrow for the damned man. It is like to say "it's not personal it's law". Don't fall under the law, because it will be done 100% of the time. Without Jesus, there is no hope for us. He is the One and Only Hope we have.
How can I convey this? Repent, believe in Jesus and Love Him. Now, when you Love Jesus, and are Saved, Truly there is no 'fear' to be had.
So yes, 1:John 4:18 is True.
=====
So, here you see "fear has to do with punishment"- This is True. I have been punished, personally I would say "many times"- no one here knows of my life. I have many painful events throughout my life.. so many! hit by a car, motorcyle accident, so many disappointments, nothing worked out for me.. much failure.. much broken heartedness.. love lost over and over... and in these things I would say to myself "well, at least God will open his door wide to Heaven, for me"- Well, I couldn't have been more wrong. It was hell I was going to. But all these things, along with Jesus' Mercy- to pull me from the fires of hell.. that finally broke me.. to surrender. You might say, "oh my what a terrible story"? My story is a story of 'Love'. And in the Truth that I wept of, all I could see was a God trying so hard for me. A man whose soul was like a piece of steel that needed to be hammered so many times before it was tempered, finally. This is my God who Loved me even before the foundation of this world. And God tells us he will punish us, if He loves us.
And why? Here is why;
Hebrews 12:6-7 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?
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please hightlight the 1:John 4:18 it only highlighting the 'John 4:18' which is a different verse, thank you.
Tell me something about God.
No i dont agree, because the scripture i pointed out already said , "there is no fear in love" .And that we know is very true. When your parents punish you ,they are not sending to burn is fire, and suffer for eternity. For that would not be about love if they did. It would be more about anger, and vengeance , and maybe hate too.
So as i've pointed out , either your god has a big problem with schizophrenia. Or (more likely) your holy book was written by some ancient war lord type tyrants . Thus why the scripture they wrote,often resembles the attitudes of somebody much like a Kim Jung-il figure. Who at one moment talks about loving his people, yet next moment is demanding they need to do stuff ,using threats of extreme punishment and death as fear with which to enforce it.
You cannot have it both ways .
Being a good parent or husband or wife, does not need to include fear.Its not true love if it does. All that is needed is unconditional love ,lots of caring and understanding ,and being a good role model and suchlike.Same thing with taking good care of our children too.Sowing unconditional love , will help to sow unconditional love in return.
Thus why there is no fear in love. Punishment has no need to include violence and harm. And specially not extreme harm .
However we already know that the holy bible is a collection of ancient scriptures , written back in times when many men did indeed live more like the war lord type. Complete with their human slaves, and even their women being kept almost as "second class" humans too. Thus living in fear ,rather than love.
We know that it were human church fathers too , in later days ,who finally all came together , to decide on what scriptures they thought to include , and what scriptures to not include in the bible we now see here today. Which we now call the holy bible
Thus we already know the bible you read today, has far more influence from many men , than it ever does have influences of any God or deity.
And such facts become very obvious , when what's written also vividly shows up to be like its a sad case of schizophrenia . Its like this , because it simply cant help but mirror , the ever changing attitudes and "moods" of mere mortal men .That's why.Cause it is a "product",of their ancient thoughts.
Now i already doubt you will ever dare to agree with me about this. But no matter anyway. For that still doesn't help prove that i'm wrong . For indeed, it is i, that have the "evidence" sitting on my side of this debate . That helps me "show-up",and "expose" , that quite obviously much of your holy book is indeed influenced by "moods" of mere men.
Gandolf
Ok, Tell Me Something, I will tell YOU something. I characterized your position as "he will send those without faith to burn forever regardless how moral they are; and he will take up to heaven those who have faith regardless how immoral they are" -- and your response is "It doesn't just work like that." So, in other words, you disagree with the majority of Protestants. So your argument is dead in the water. You hold a minority position in Christendom, and therefore, are not even representative enough of Christianity to answer anyone's objections!
I, personally, do not argue that 'men' wrote the bible. In this,you are mistaken. The Word of God must not be only looked upon in who put the ink to the page. This is not how it works. No. The Word is and has always been inspired by God Himself. The Word is Reliable and Trustworthy.
In addition to this, I have the Testimony having been baptized of the Holy Spirit- In this I tell you simply.. The Holy Spirit is and always was and will be, Among us. This goes back to the discussion of 'now knowing what you do not have' so that's not an argument it is simply one person having something and knowing what it is, and another not having it and not knowing what it is. The one who has it, can give description and I have done that. And I described that in order to have it, God must give it, through Jesus Christ.. The One who Baptizes in the Holy Spirit.
So you see, I cannot even ponder much on your thought that the bible is written by men. Personally, I cannot ponder on this because I have had the Holy Spirit come upon me. Amen.
With regard to 'love' and 'fear' If we want God to love us no matter what, that only says 'I want to keep sinning' but I still want God to love me and I want to go to heave "if there is one". People, do not think this way.
This is as if to say to even God Himself- that you want to make the rules. The terrible danger here is that God's rules are the only one's that count. And we break them. And this is sin. Not that we should say "love me anyway God'.
This will NOT happen. But we *men* sure do make many attempts to 'go around' the Word. Amen, Lord.
@anonymous- There is great weight in the 'relationship' with Jesus Christ. For me, personally, though indeed a sinner who was absolutely lost in the wilderness... alone and afraid- what could I possibly do in the world? I wanted to see, so I started up this thing it was almost, for me, an experiment to try to 'live without God'. I thought to myself 'okay, I will go to school, have a girlfriend, work, and try to be a good person and I think that in these things.. so long as I mind my business and move along throughout my life- that I should basically be 'blameless'. Right? I mean seems right. I wasn't intending on hurting anyone. Or doing anything malicious. What could possibly be wrong with a life like that?
Hmm.. a life without God? Well, the thing is that God gave me my life. God created the world that I was going to navigate through and somehow I was going to say to God "you have nothing against me, God"? What good is it that I appear before God as though I am 'righteous'? When to begin with I didn't even deserve this chance to have this mortal life- that leads to Salvation, through Jesus Christ. There is something fundamentally wrong with this attitude. It is an attitude that is not in the 'Truth'.
The Truth is that I have sinned. The Truth is that I must believe it when God said he knew me before I was formed in my mother's womb. I must believe that I am a sinner, and I must come to know that my sins are serious. Serious enough to end the life of my Soul.
I don't want to blind. And now I know that I don't want to be blind, because I have eyes. And I want you to have eyes.
The world is not "it". But in this world look around yourself. Who understands this? People believe jobs and homes and cars and good looks, and "hot girlfriends" and sex and more sex and being popular, or rich or even famous- is "it".
And yet, there above us is a Holy God. And here down below with us, is His Word. And His Son died for us, so that we might Live. And indeed the road to Life is difficult and narrow. Oh how difficult it is.
And God with veils and veils lifted is in control of all Spiritual aspects of Salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ.
That's it. It's not about intellictual capacity and/or who is a biblical scholar. It is about what God does. Period. It is about that 'relationship' with Jesus throughout our life. Who could know what mine was? As a child, an adulescent, and adult? Who, but God? Who, among, men cannot see the maturation of my physical self- all can see this. But who can see the maturation of my Spiritual self? What can a man do 'watch to see if I go to a brick and mortar church'? And then decide if I am 'good'?
Who am I compared to you? Who are you compared to me? Who is to say? I am myself. You are yourself. And this is how God made things. But, I can give testimony to this much.
The time comes when "you" are before God. I know this and when I was born again of the Holy Spirit- One of the first things I grappled with was "me, God"? In this world, very few things "came to me". But, then- God came to me. And many things of the world 'fell away'- and Truths fell upon me. And I was dead in this world, when things happened. Dead of a prescription drug overdose.
The world killed Christ.
The world killed me.
A True Christian who loved Jesus and tried to live like Him, in suffering. Who is to know what this means? Who?
"The Truth is that I have sinned."
What is that to me? See thou to it.
Just a little humor. Yes, you sinned, everybody sins. But seriously, you don't have to magnify the power of sin to the point that you make it a second God. You Fundies make sin so powerful its a wonder that Sin didn't create the world, because as powerful as you make it, clearly its more powerful than your God (in your minds that is).
Pelagius said God gave us the power in the beginning to sin or to not sin. You say "No, sin is an entity; it possesses me; I sin, but its not really me that does it, its Sin itself, its a second God more powerful than God Himself and it forces me to sin" etc. Get a grip dude. Seriously.
"People believe jobs and homes and cars and good looks, and "hot girlfriends" and sex and more sex and being popular, or rich or even famous- is 'it'."
Yes, but your crazy brand of "Sin is alive" Christianity that worships Sin as the greatest power in the universe is not the solution to this: Pelagianism is.
Sin? Sin is why we are cursed and under law? It is what the earth is all about. A planet full of sinners, only. So, yes that qualifies 'sin' to be the whole thing of it. After God created the earth, the next thing we hear about is how Adam and Eve "sinned".
We are seeds of Adam and under the curse of sin and, why wouldn't we see if our Father's sinned? We are of them, from them. Sinning is our nature. So if I take on your stance of not making too big a deal about it.. what does this mean? Does it mean- 'hey don't worry so much about sin' and then keep on sinning? In this attitude there is no need for repentance.
But repentance is one of the requirements of Salvation? Are you saying 'Salvation' shouldn't be made a big deal of either? We have to be very careful here... God knows the attitude of our heart and by the way it is 'sin' that brings forth 'death' which is the end our souls. That's a big deal.
So, then why is sin such a big deal, if it is? Well, sin is like a virus, it is permutative and pervasive- it affects and effects everything! Imagine that you are a righteous man and do not sin, and there are 50 others just like you.. but then there are 5 sinners who come along and mix in with you... they lie, deceive and they begin to present ideas to the group- you know.. they have these great ideas of changing the way things are.. they say that things could be much better if we did things this way, or that way (this begins to sound like Eve's confrontation)- The sinners begin to test God's Word and Authority- They tempt the righteous men.. now there is a tension among them and now some might begin to wander towards the sinners, others might not.. but now there is division. This will happen 100% of the time- where there is a sinner there will be division.
So, will there be division in Heaven? No! God's Word will be obeyed and done and there will be no division, no sin, and no temptation..
Jesus came to Save sinners.
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Pelagianism is not possible and is false. Sorry. I promise you this, you can not stop sinning. Nor will you ever! So long as you live, and are alive you are required to do things.. to sleep, to wake and to be 'alive'. There is a spiritual war in the heavenly realm- satan is ruling the world- and I promise you that by means through wich take place in the spiritual realm- demons will have their way with men. There will be times if you try to resist sin, that you will literally be dragged down into sin because you "love to sin". And you will sin! I know this, you know this, God knows this and the Lord stated this. And it is simply the Truth!
Cont-d
No man can live and simultaneously 'not sin'. But make sure you know what a sin is. And the definition of 'sin' is within the Word. Jesus said 'there is not 1 righteous among you'.
Yes sin is the problem. The entire problem. But there is a WAY to come out of this 'Alive'- But you have to know that the 'WAY' is the 'TRUTH' and when you know the 'WAY' is the 'TRUTH' that leads us out of 'death' and into "LIFE"- Then you know that Jesus is the Way, The Truth, and The Life.
What is Jesus to us? He is our only Hope. We are drowning in our mortality- and there is One who can pull us up. See it this way, and call out to Him- "Jesus Save me"
And He will.
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If you want to know me read Psalm 69:1-18
It was written for a man like me. And I weep because the Lord is True and Faithful. I am truly a wretch, of what use am I? I am of no use really. I have many shortcummings and I know them. To men, there are many things to say about me. But my heart loves Jesus. This is a part of who I am. And what does that mean compared with a man who has many things of great praise among men, but does not love Jesus? I suffer, yes. And some men do not suffer as I do. I have poverty, and lonesomeness.. they have riches and many people around them.. wife and children and many friends. I am alone in prayer mostly to the Lord. But I am, yet, of great worth to the Lord.
An elect. Perhaps, a King but do not know fully yet. My treasures are in Heaven and I have, in my feeble attempts to be a good man and failed and have little attractiveness to any woman or even man- none of which come to me nor call me- and yet, I have sought the Kingdom of God.. all my time.
And I am filled with the Love of God.
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